Conversation with Ken Lewis: Making #1 Hits, Working With Kanye & Usher, and Much More

We're excited to welcome our first guest on The Rise, the incredibly talented producer, songwriter, mixing engineer, and multi-instrumentalist, Ken Lewis. Ken has been nominated by name for his contributions to 7 Grammy-nominated projects including Usher's Confessions, Eminem's Recovery, Kanye West's The College Dropout, FUN's Some Nights, and others. He has 104 RIAA-certified gold records and four platinum albums. He is the creator of two web-based instructional platforms: Audio School Online and Music School Online. On this podcast, he talked about how it all started, his relationship with music artists, the music industry, his plug-in Greenhouse (it's awesome, check it out!), and much more. Check out his Mixing Nights on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH_lQKa27KAIBq4VPTaNdHQ

Transcript

Adam   0:02
Talking music, building businesses, and the grit in the journey. We're Skrizz and Adam and welcome to The Rise.

Skrizz   0:18
Okay, we are rolling. This is Skrizz, this is Adam. We have guests, Ken Lewis Studio. Kenny, how are you doing dude?

Ken   0:23
Good. How are you guys tonight?

Skrizz   0:24
Doing good. For those tuning in for the first time. Ken is a, how many times platinum?

Ken   0:32
Well, gold, I have 104 RIAA certified gold record. A lot of those are also platinum and multi-platinum.

Skrizz   0:40
How many diamond?

Ken   0:41
Maybe four.

Skrizz   0:42
Four diamond. Okay.

Adam    0:43
Cool. Let me, let me cut in real quick. I listen to a podcast of yours about a year ago now. And you had 99 at the time.

Ken   0:49
Yes, I was stuck on 99 for the longest time. And all of a sudden, like five in a row.

Skrizz   0:54
I have the best stories. So can set RIAA or they mean strictly America. But I thought whenever you had 99, you just had 99 plaques. And then right behind us, which I won't show is my Swiss black. And then I bring it to you as a gift and you were super grateful and pumped about it. And I was like, and I was like so we're at 100 like, Oh, no, that doesn't count. It doesn't mean shit. By the way. I was like for the record. A gold record in Switzerland only means I think it means like 10,000 units. So it's the equivalent of going gold in New Jersey. But it's still a Friday. So we all did it. Do you know?

Ken   01:28
It's a, it's a compartmental thing. You know, you have done this well in this region. That is not an easy thing to do anywhere. Shout out to you guys.

Skrizz   01:40
But yeah, so Ken works with me on a bunch of records. You're a producer, engineer, mixer, songwriter, jack of all trades, world-class finisher. For those who know my catalog, Ken's I would say your superhuman moments were meeting you, young man, too close to fire 28. You were kind of the mastermind behind that I'd say. So yeah.

Adam   02:04
How'd you guys get introduced?

Ken   02:06
I think, did Brent.

Skrizz   02:09
Brent mix my first EP, during my first EP here actually Brent mix my first EP, and I finally worked with him all the time. And I don't think I like the first round of mixes or something. So I was like, Can I come in person, and like work with you because these aren't sounding the way I want them to. And then I came here, and I met you. And then we talked more. At that one time, I think I had a large arsenal of unreleased music and we came up with an agreement that you want to finish one of them or pursue one of them as a production. And we did that. And that was me and you and the rest
is history.

Ken   02:39
What happened with me and knew was that. We were going to produce one song to start. And and I was going to pick that song and go with it. So you came over and you had like 20 songs to play me.

Skrizz   02:50
Yes, that's the very last one. I was reluctant to even play it to you.

Ken   02:59
Yeah, you didn't want to play it for me. And I had already pretty much picked out another song which I believe became rattle your cage. And that was the one that I was gonna Yeah, there was something else in there. I don't know what it was. But I just kept pushing him and push. And I was like Skrizz what else do you got? What else do you got? And he's like, I got this one thing.

Skrizz   03:16
I think this is was the reluctancy. And this was definitely me being naive at the time, which was like, the song was. So I already worked with another, like an additional production type guy on it.

Ken   03:27
It had been produced three times.

Skrizz   03:30
No, it had been produced three times. I had made 105 versions of it. Like, like, I know, do you have like bounce one bounce two, I had like 105 bounces of it by the time. And I think the thing was, this is a big thing we learned I think about every day was like I was making a lot of little changes when what needed to be done was like five huge changes. And that was the fundamental thing we were missing. We were like, oh, cut the intro. could use a lot of chopping your cut this, cut that, cut back, and put it all together.

Ken   03:58
30 minutes. I just took what he played me.

Skrizz   04:01
I think he chopped it up in Pro Tools.

Ken   04:03
And logic. Actually, I was like, I was like, this is your single it's all wrong. He goes No, not this one. After I say that, I'm like he's like none on anything. And I'm like, No, this is the one he's like, Sean hates this, everybody, this is what I. No. I will make sure I love this. Don't you worry about it. And I sat there and logic and I just chopped it up for you know, half an hour and I just.

Skrizz   04:33
I think even the most amazing thing that I'm still astounded to I was diving into the session for like a live thing today. You took, you didn't like you added a few things but you took everything we had.

Ken   04:44
I took the bone.

Skrizz   04:45
and reworked it. That was the magic thing. I remember sending it back to the digital production guy and he's like, how is this the same sounds like these are the same components like all the same components, same composition, same drum sounds, and you just totally frankenstein it which is kind of like a testament to that like especially that age like you can be so close to something and still have no idea what you're working with.

Ken   05:04
Yeah, and one of my kind of superpowers as a producer is that I can mix. A lot of people look at that we're just trying to separate our thing. But mixing and production to me is that, is the same thing. And mixing. Like, I use a lot of the tools of mixing in my thought processes as a producer in ways producers don't use those tools.

Skrizz   05:28
I mean having a synergy between production and mixing is like this very necessary bridge that doesn't exist 95% of the time.

Ken   05:36
It's so hard to mix your own productions I've gotten good at it fine but it's taken years to be really loving.

Skrizz   05:44
My biggest blind spot by a landslide because like I know as like an executive producer for like other artists or stuff like that. I can produce a record and then like, be super hands-on with mixed notes and be like, I can just see it. But if I'm the one actually doing it sounds like a pass. I have no idea. I don't know why.

Ken   06:02
It's a different bubble.

Adam   6:04
So how do you know when you're like, so Skrizz gives you a record? You listen to it? How instantly Do you know if this is a record that you can turn into something special?

Ken   06:12
I mean, you know, sometimes you just completely miss it. Like resurrecting, was a perfect example.

Skrizz   06:21
But I will say that in your defense. All we had was diverse.

Ken   06:25
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't a solid with it with somebody else was brilliant. But I heard the demo. And I was like, it's not really catching me. But sometimes I can hear a demo like, was it Young Man? Yeah. Yeah, just acoustic guitar.

Skrizz   06:41
It wasn't even a demo. I think I just say it for you. Literally you they me right here. Yeah, that was an instant connection.

Adam   06:47
Have you turned down working with somebody because you're like, not this. I don't care what I do to this. I'm never gonna turn this into.

Ken   06:53
I turn people down all the time. I try not to produce stuff that I don't think I can do a great job on.

Skrizz   06:58
Yeah, they have some big ones in the 2000s that you turned down. Try to think.

Adam   07:02
Right. Like that turned out to be like a huge.

Ken   07:04
Actually, there were a couple that they don't like near misses that got away like who's the piano girl? The Russian girl. Ah, yeah. So so. So come to me. She's super, super quirky. Anyway, she got away. Her name will come back to me, um, but uh yeah, it sometimes it's just like you You try and line up dates with, with artists to work and then they're on tour or shirt on in town or and then, you know, next thing you know, like, she came back next time. Next time I saw her in a club, she was being produced by the lead singer of the strokes or the guitar player, or something?

Skrizz   07:52
Maybe not necessarily production, but just sheer involvement in a song because you've been involved in a billion songs. Have you ever been involved in something and you took the paycheck? But you didn't necessarily believe and maybe I don't want to have you say this on air.

Ken   08:07
I'm not gonna give you an example of a paycheck. But you know, a lot in production land, I try not to take too many paychecks. But, and I still have to think that I'm going to be able to do a great job and I turn production sharing all the time. But, you know, man's gotta eat and I'm not immune to wanting money and needing money that.

Skrizz   08:31
Was there a time or one of those gigs like blew up and became and massive? And you were just no, universally, it's pretty. I mean, again, if they're pulling you in on it, you know, the labels getting behind it at that point. That's usually the philosophy.

Ken   08:48
I mean, it's so hard to get a massive hit. It's so hard to get a massive hit. It is so hard to get a massive hit.

Adam   08:57
I want to provide like perspective for anyone who's watching or listening. Like Ken has produced the best of the best and worked with the best of the best, you know, just look around you know, m&m, Jay Z or Kanye, Alicia Keys. I just saw Alicia Keys and instantly we think about Jay Z.

Ken   09:14
But on production has been like Jay Cole, Kanye,  Kendrick Lamar. Like I'm mixed, mixed. Mixed the secret with that album.

Skrizz   09:25
That was the one button by that asshole was that guy.

Ken   09:26
Yeah, but the government just read well, the government really named it and they just resold it. I guess in a private sale. Maybe it'll resurface, I don't know.

Skrizz   09:35
You know what that private, this secret album? That's essentially like, caught it.

Ken   09:39
They made a, they made an basically an art project. It was called once upon a time in Shaolin. And it was a Wu-Tang double album of which, when it was finished, only one copy exists in the world. I mixed the entire thing but I have no copies of it, which is crazy. The security operators have no copies of it. The only, the guy that bought it at auction has the copy and then he got arrested and the government seized it and it's been on a government locker. So the government just resold it. So I don't know who they sold it to. But I'm hoping that whoever they sold it to puts it out. 

Skrizz   10:22
Oh my god, they can do that?

Ken   10:23
I have no idea.

Adam   10:24
If they own it, right.

Skrizz   10:26
Because they own the master. Yes.

Ken   10:27
You never know what the terms of sale are. So who knows?

Skrizz   10:33
Was it? Was it a good project?

Ken   10:34
I was fire. Fucking fire.

Adam   10:39
So what are you, what are you able to talk about it? Is there anything that you're able?

Ken   10:44
I don't know what I can. Because, you know, I mean, it's a lot of money behind it. So and it was, it's a, you know, like an art piece? You know, getting to watch Picasso paints. And then, you know, how much do I get to talk about his process, so, I don't know.

But I love the concept of I'll tell you the one thing that I wish they had done that they didn't do, which was my suggestion, which was to take the album on a tour of modern art museums and have like a headphone listening room. Make sure to deactivate all devices, you know, have, you know, check everybody's fucking ears and make sure there's no, whatever. You know, provide headphones, and let Wu Tang fans worldwide, at least go to the major cities and experience the album before it goes away forever as an art piece.

And they had talked about doing that. And I don't know why it didn't. I don't know why that didn't happen. But that to me would have been the the real solution to the whole thing. Because, you know, fans felt a certain way about it. You know, of course, but, you know, as they should. I mean, it was a great album, I would want I want to hear it again. I'm a fan. I want to hear it again.

So, but um, you know, but, but you can't fault artists for pushing the envelope and making art. And you may not you know, art makes you have an opinion. So if your opinion is fuck those guys for doing that art. Well, they they, they forced you to have an opinion. Mission accomplish.

Adam   12:18
Timeframe. Like what year was that?

Ken   12:22
Oh. 15, 13, 14, 16 I fucking don't know, it was a while ago. Can I curse?

Skrizz   12:31
Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Adam   12:32
Curse all you want. Yeah.

Skrizz   12:36
So this is The Rise. This is the podcast. It's more like we talk technical stuff all day. When did you first enter the music industry? And how did you enter and keep talking about that experience?

Ken   12:49
So I, I went to college at Berklee College of Music have graduated magna cum laude in music production and engineering. I was like a shit student in high school because I fucking hated it. And excelled at Berkleee, because I fucking loved it. Got out got a gig. Well, actually, I went back to Ohio and worked in a studio there for a year.

Skrizzly   13:14
Wait, what city?

Ken   13:16
Dayton, Ohio. I lived in Cincinnati, Ohio, worked in Dayton. And then a year later, me and my future wife would move to New York City. And I started at a studio called soundtrack and I was a staff at soundtrack for three years.

Skrizz   13:30
Who are some of the artists that rolled your soundtrack at the time.

Ken   13:33
Let's see the plaques. There is one, Friday. So I worked on the Friday soundtrack. That was my second gold record. Um, the Jason's lyric soundtrack was my first gold record. I worked on it there and soul asylum was my third gold record on there. And worked with Butch Vig there.

Skrizz   13:53
Yes. I've heard a lot about that. Butch Vig did the Nirvana album and a lot of big stuff.

Ken   14:02
Yeah, it was, it was an amazing time because when I started and then I went freelance and 95 and I've been a freelancer ever since. And it's just, everybody's like, Well, you know, what was your big break? When was the moment? I was like, fuck, I'm waiting for the fucking moment.

Skrizz   14:18
I mean, I don't often know yours. You've I feel I've been in music since I was 19, professionally, and I'm 30 now. Definitely has not been a big, there'll be like, they're pretty amazing days. And there have been amazing like things that have given you a bump in your career, but there's never been like, the never been like, aha fucking moment. You know what I mean? And like, I feel like I've come a long way for someone my age but still like, you know.

Ken   14:40
I mean, you, you could say, looking back the moment I'm at Kanye West. Sure. But the amount of work I've had to put in to get there.

Skrizz   14:51
The amount of work you put in with Kanye West and the amount of like.

Ken   14:54
Just spent on one foot in front of the other.

Skrizz   14:75
With Kanye, there were a lot of W's, I'm sure there were a lot of Ls there. A lot of good days a lot of bad days like.

Ken   15:02
Yeah, when I did the horn section on all of the lights.

Skrizz   15:06
We had a quick turnaround time, right?

Ken   15:08
Three to four days.

Skrizz   15:10
 It's pretty quick. Really quick, we're talking about.

Ken   15:14
It's three or four days of, I started immediately. Danny flam got here, as he spent all day. He brought like 26 or 28 horns with him, and he can play them all. And, and we spent like eight or 10 hours, cooking up a basic arrangement. And then I sent him home and I spent two more days just assembling and moving and comping. And because we over recorded way more ideas than we needed because I didn't know what the final shift would be. And it was.

Skrizz   15:43
How descriptive was Kanye? Was it, was someone else was kind of directly giving you the thing, nor was he very vague?

Ken   15:50
So Well, I mean to define vague,

Skrizz   15:53
Was he like, we need three trombones.

Ken   15:55
No, he called me up so he sent me a, like an mp3 of this Casio keyboard playing the melody. And that's all he sent me. No harmonies, no nothing. It was literally that one. And it sounded like a $20 keyboard. And he gets on the phone with me. And he's like, it's like, I want this to sound like a marching band stadium at halftime. And I'm like, okay. And that was almost the entirety of our conversation. I mean, there was more, but I don't. That was the ship that stuck with me. And then I just wait, but I turn that shit in. And it was crickets. Crickets for like three months it was total crickets and usually in Kanye land because this has happened a bunch. You do whatever work and then you turn it in. He listens for 30 seconds like so hard now. The great thing is you still get paid but yeah, of course, the but the work doesn't.

Skrizz   17:04
FYI. Thank you for the gig I did with you and Kanye, I didn't get paid for. They were very prompt started the Kanye's team for being professional. Shoutout Kanye's team.

Ken   17:12
Yeah, Kanye's team has always been great. But,

Adam   17:14
But you're directly dealing with Kanye not with his team. Giving you the ideas, the vision all that.

Ken   17:20
Usually. Yeah. And then and then like, I haven't, I haven't worked with him since Pablo.

Skrizz   17:26
And you did a ton of Pablo, right? Which is insane.

Ken   17:29
I have like nine gigs. I did two full choir gigs for Pable and for wolves. I did choirs for wolves and fade and he ended up changing the lyrics on both of them and not using the choirs but yeah, he's got, he's got that I got to respect that he's possibly the only artist I've ever worked with who will try whatever he wants to try. How many ideas, come what may regardless of budget and he has always been like that since the very beginning.

Skrizz   18:00
What was it, didn't he go? I don't want to say the wrong thing. But like didn't he go completely broke shooting the touch the sky video? And then like, wasn't like, was it not that great? Or? Like he spent $2 million on it? And then like it lost a bunch of awards?

Ken   18:17
But I remember like, didn't he shoot for not through? Not through the wire? What was the he paid for his first videos? Because, you know, so that's like.

Skrizz   18:28
I think you have a story with that name.

Adam   18:30
Well, yeah, I so Kanye has always been kind he's the most mentioned on our podcast as we were probably talking about Kanye more than we talked about ourselves. We love Kanye. So my dad used to work in radio. So like, you probably know New York City stations like Z 100 power 105 all those stations. And my dad was telling me a story about this was like, just after through.

Skrizz   18:52
What was your dad's role, was he like?

Adam   18:54
He was like the GM so like, he ran all the business, the business side of things. So he was in like a state of the station for power 105, the hip hop, one of the big hip hop stations in New York. And they had a big executive meeting Kanye walks into the studio or into the office building. This is just after through the wire. But before Kanye, is Kanye This is just after through the wire, and he sees my dad and all these like radio exact types in this conference room. So he's like, Alright, I'm gonna go in this conference room. He's like, makes the whole thing about him. And the last thing he says before he walks out, he's like, the only person more talented than me is Jesus Christ. Closing the door walks out literally. Everyone was like what the fuck has happened.

Ken   19:36
150,000% can see that happening.

Adam   19:44
I think there's something so interesting with that, and I would love to hear your perspective on it because you've worked with I mean, the best of the best.

Skrizz   19:51
So how many years before through the wire that you make on it?

Ken   19:53
I started working with Kanye, I think 2000, at least 2002 maybe 2004.

Skrizz   20:00
No, through the wire was 2004 so two years.

Ken   20:03
Yeah, so I was a producer before he was an artist. And nobody knew him as an artist. Nobody knew him as an artist.

Skrizz   20:13
Did anyone know when this came out? It might have been around that time. I'm guessing.

Ken   20:17
That was already out by the time I was working, I want to say so he had some hits, and it's why he moved to Jersey, right? Yeah, Jay brown and G Roberson called me up one day, and they were like, hey, Ken, do you know, this young producer named Kanye West? And I'm like, Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, he had done. It was awesome. Right. And, and they were like, well, he needs somebody who knows, like, genuinely knows rockin hip hop to do something for him. And your name keeps coming up.

Skrizz   20:44
He was showing interest in rock that early on.

Ken   20:45
It was just, it was.

Skrizz   20:48
Instrumentation is what they meant.

Ken   20:49
Yeah. So yeah, he didn't know how to get it. I did.

Skrizz   20:53
Sure. Of course. It's very symbiotic relations.

Ken   20:56
So I did that gig for him and that was the first thing I did. But then when we were making college dropout, that was post accident. And even his own even within Rockefeller, they weren't checking for him. Everybody thought that he was like.

Skrizz   21:19
There's keeping them happy, cuz he was a great producer.

Ken   21:21
Like, you know, producer wants to be an artist. And all of us making the album we're like, this is a seminal album that is going to change yet. And everybody else was like, yeah, fucking joke, fucking producer, there's gotta be a backpack bullshit. And I'm like, people, you got to wake up, please. This is coming.

Skrizz   21:39
And think about what, what were some of the other artists on label at the time?

Ken   21:44
Young guns?

Skrizz   21:46
Where are they now?

Ken   21:47
Oh, yeah. Who did Rockefeller?

Skrizz   21:49
I think we had a bunch of artists. They were, they were the label, but like, Where are those people? Now? They're nowhere.

Ken   21:54
Yeah, I mean, some of them still do underground stuff. And they're okay. But they never, you know, was never that. But, you know, but that's so typical of, of, of the artist trajectory. And that's why you got to believe in yourself, because there's not even the people that look you in the face and tell you that they believe in you and our fan believe in you. People are shitty human beings. And they don't get on the train until other people they don't know like you.

Skrizz   22:25
I was on Atlantic Records. for two and a half years. My own a&r did not have my face on his wall. He had every other artists face on their wall. But he did not have my face on that wall. Yeah. And as the person I was signed to, you know what I mean?

Ken   22:37
this is a thing. And so, you know, my advice to any young artist is, you know, take advice for what it is. Advice is just somebody's opinion. The dog is spoiling for I don't know. Well, yes. And, you know, you got to take everybody's opinion for what it means to you.

Skrizz   23:01
I think someone's opinion can benefit you, I definitely have learned that significantly over my 20s. Like, like, if you can sit with information for 72 hours, and you wake up in the morning be like, I see what they're saying, I don't agree you've made progress. If you wake up in the morning, you're like, I see what they're saying. I'm gonna give it a shot. You've made progress like no matter what you're making progress. That's the thing people don't realize the second you shoot something down.

Ken   23:30
But you can't, the thing is too many people chase opinions. One, one industry person of no, here's their stuff and makes a comment, or says Oh, I like it. And all of a sudden.

Skrizz   23:31
Changes the whole dynamic. Oh, it's the right.

Ken   23:34
And that's, you know, it's because everybody wants that, you know, affirmation, but the, if you just can't change everybody's opinions. And, and, you gotta you got to know who you are as an artist, you got to chase who you are as an artist. And no matter what anybody fucking says you got to take their opinions and absorb them and and course cracked is as best for what makes sense to you but.

Skrizz   23:58
To piggyback off what you said, I think one of the most interesting parts of your story in general, is that like you, you've been a part of so many people's stories, such as Kanye, and you've been there way before anything even happened. Can you name some people? I'm seeing faces on the wall.

Ken   24:16
Krewella is a one. Yeah, I named Rain Man. So Rain Man is the founder of Krewella. With Yasmine.

Skrizz   24:29
But that guy is not with him anymore.

Ken   24:30
No.

Skrizz   24:31
How are they doing without him?

Ken   24:33
I don't know. I mean, they're still kicking around. But he was originally signed to me and he was named blue blocker. And, and I developed him as producer for a while, and, and he was producing Krewella, but they were kind of a pop group and he, he calls me up one day and he's like, Ken, would you let me out of my production contract? I want to focus on 24/7 365 solely on Krewella and I just want to do it by myself. I'm sure go ahead. So off he went and then boom. So you're welcome. Ariana Grande was.

Skrizz   25:10
Explained that one. I actually don't know that one that Well, that was way before she was with Republic, right?

Ken   25:16
Not way before but but it was early. So, um, she was on she was in a Broadway play called 13 the musical. We produced her when she was 14 and 15 years old. We wrote and produced her first EP that she ever did. I was the first vocal producer. And I have I still have it saved somewhere. I don't know where it is. But I have this voice memo from her calling me from California when she went out to out there and she was working in Dianne Warren's camp. And she's the voicemails. She's like, I mean, Diane Warren's camp and their vocal produce me and they're doing all the same things that you were doing. Thank you so much. I love you. Bye.

Skrizz   26:02
Okay, let's try to think, did you work with John Balian?

Ken   26:04
Early. I produced John Balian earlier.

Skrizz   26:05
Okay. So you have everyone from Kanye to Krewella to Ariana Grande to John Balian. Like, what was the common denominator that you recognized? Or were there any common denominators?

Ken   26:18
Just, man, I usually find that there is some sort of it factor with.

Skrizz   26:24
It factor with musical or it factor personality?

Ken   26:27
I think it's, it's it. It starts with the music for sure.  And if the music catches me, then the personality has to catch me. And then, you know, I mean, Ariana walked in the room and the room changed. I mean, some people just have so much of whatever it is, Ariana has more it than anybody I've ever met. Maybe Usher, Usher walked in a room and it changed that one. And working with Usher instantly felt like I had been working with him for 10 years.

Skrizz  27:06
Really. Was it his talent level that made it so seamless? Or was his ability to communicate?

Ken   27:11
I think he realized that he was in the room with somebody who knew what the fuck they were doing because I recorded and mixed. I recorded the vocal on confessions. On what was the song that I didn't really know that well. I can't remember what the fuck. Jesus, it's one of my diamonds. Well, I mixed a song on confessions. Good thing when your diamond records.

Throwback, Yes. Okay, so I mixed throwback for, for Usher. And I recorded the vocal on it. And that was just me and Just Blaze and Usher. And Just Blaze And yeah, so I mixed for Just Blaze And he calls me up and he's like, yo, bring your microphone tonight. So, so I brought it in. So, Just Blaze introduces me to Usher and we all chatted up and then Justin leaves. And it's just me and Usher. And I think he just assumed, okay, if Justin is giving him the stamp of approval, then, you know, and then within the first five minutes, I was basically producing vocals for Usher, man, I was, you know, telling him, like, Oh, we should do that again, or a little sharp or, you know.

Total trust instantly. Like we had been working together forever. It was great, fucking magic. It was, um, and some people are just like that. Mario Wymans was like that last year was like that. There's definitely been a few that have just vocally just really clicked.

Adam   28:38
Do you see? You know, like the Kanye thinking he's number two to Jesus Christ. Like are you seeing that with other artists ahead of time? Like do they have such an is there an ego or is there like a thought of on the best that you need to have to make it?

Skrizz   28:53
Fine line between like being competitive in a healthy way and then being a total narcissist like yeah, there's a fine line there.


Ken   28:59
I think most artists undo themselves with their ego and most, most credibly talented artists you will never hear because they don't understand that this business is so much more than the talent and that nobody gives so much talk about you.

Adam   29:18
Can you talk about that more because I think that, that's fascinating?

Ken   29:22
Yeah, I mean shit you know.

Skrizz   29:24
The talent is necessary but it's only a tiny percent.

Ken   29:27
Talent is the buy-in level.

Skrizz   29:29
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's a buy and I needed to know not everybody sounded only a small percentage on it but you have to have it that's like your ticket out the door.

Ken   29:37
Bring me whatever, whoever you think is the most special unsigned artist right now and shave me a month and I can probably find somebody else. That would stop, stop you in your tracks like that. You know, talent falls from fucking.

Skrizz   29:51
I think about this a lot when I hear someone who's insanely talented.

Ken   29:55
And here's a super and easy way to look at this. The Voice. Has had. Well, well well over 1000 contestants on television wrapped by a superstar judge coach by the best in the industry. How many of those big executives yet? Not one single household name with over 1000 and that's the music industry.

Skrizz   30:18
Actually, Morgan Wallen was from The Voice.

Ken   30:20
Oh, was he?

Skrizz   30:21
But like that wasn't it wasn't the voice that got him there. It was literally, I learned this actually, just recently that Morgan Wallen, he covered a Florida Georgia Line song, Florida Georgia Line's manager signed Morgan Wallen like a few months later, still, I learned that someone I friends with now wrote his big hit song uptown, like so many things had to go right in order for Morgan to find his identity and all this to happen. And then like for Florida Georgia Line to leave the same label to go to big machine and big loud and then prioritizing Morgan. So much went right. Like it's crazy.

Ken   30:53
Yeah. In order to, I mean, to get signed is like, step two.

Skrizz   30:59
Yeah. And that's like, one in a million.

Ken   31:01
The challenge by in, is step one.

Skrizz   31:04
And even that requires like 20,000 hours.

Ken   31:06
Step two is building your own fan base. I cannot stress that enough.  You're one of the best at it. You know? You really work hard to, to get actual fans. Just likes not just clicks, actual fans, and there is just a gigantic difference between getting a like or a click or one list and getting a fan.

Skrizz   31:34
A big a difference to that to also thank you very much but like a lot of people like can have buzz. Buzz is one thing. Fans is a totally different thing than buzz. Buzz can come off super sexy, super exciting, super whatever. But buzz does not sustain in10 years. Buzz might not sustain you one year.

Ken   31:51
Buzz doesn't help single two.

Skrizz   31:53
Yes, but buzz does not help single two, he wasn't ready to make to the album cycle.

Adam   31:56
People want them. I feel like people search and they do everything for that buzz. But in reality, the buzz that's not sustainable, that's not long term.

Skrizz   32:07
Even at a moment when like labels getting really really behind artists, they're teeing up singles and working at radio, that still is like Buzz, if they cannot translate, you've seen it more than anybody. It's like, they got the single they're doing all this. Like they're everywhere they're on TV, it's like, when that train ends, you might be left with no fans, like you have to convert that into fandom or else you have a serious problem. That's the only like, I mean, we're learning with the streaming age that you have fans are streaming your singles, like, you can build a big income. And that can that can pivot into a buzz moment of.

Ken   32:44
But the great thing about artists nowadays is you don't need to be on the radio to be successful and to have a great career. And I mean you're over 100 million streams in streaming land.

Skrizz   32:56
150.

Ken   32:57
150 now?

Skrizz   33:00
But I think it's like a bigger flex because 150 means a million singles.

Ken   33:05
That's amazing.

Skrizz   33:06
So I can say it's all the million singles Okay, which is like that's a classic rock days like.

Adam   33:11
That's a lot, that's a bummer.

Ken   33:12
But like for you, so you're an independent artist over 100 million. You're, you're doing well and making money. We, we've produced as rocks to show so we've had a lot of success with independent artists. And I think there are independent artists who have the mentality that has changed. Everybody thinks that somebody owes them something now. The music industry and fans don't owe you shit.

Skrizz   33:38
I really like that you said that. Someone says that's, the, they, no one owes you fucking anything. If someone's buying a ticket going to your show.

Ken   33:45
Here's the cold reality of the music industry. Right now, in the history of the world, more artists, more musical artists are surviving solely on their music income than any other moment in the history of the world period. That is because of streaming.

So if you're on streaming, and it's not working out for you one of two things, either you've just got to work it and build it and get it up to a point where it's, you know, a profitable thing for you other artists have done it. I'm sitting in front of one right now. Or you've got to acknowledge that you don't want to put your energy into streaming and that's not where your, your money or your or your self worth as an artist is you don't have to value your self worth as an artist and how many streams you get, or how much money you make as an artist.

I mean artists for art first. And we were we live in a time where the other insane stat is the 60,000 songs a day uploading the Spotify. So competitive. Every day. 60,000 a day, every day. So why you? Who owes you to listen out of that 60,000? Nobody, you got to go get it. And if you can't go get it, nobody's going to bring it to you. And that is something that most artists can't, can't wrap their heads around. They, they write a great song. And they envision what this song could do. And they don't say, what will this song do with I don't and, and they and they lose the game right there.

Skrizz   35:27
You have to plan on it failing every single time and come up with a plan that we're going to be successful in the case that it fails nine out of 10 no 19 out of 20 times. That's just like, but what it is.

Ken   35:38
Like with you you have a long-term plan and a long-term goal for sure. And a consistency over the course of years that got you 150 million streams. I'm saying people look at that and they go like oh, I want to do that tomorrow. Yeah.

Skrizz   35:52
Are you gonna be in the studio 12 hours a day?

Ken   35:53
We've been fucking banging records together since what?

Skrizz   35:56
Seven years?

Ken   35:57
Yeah. I mean, this shit takes time. And if you if you want a career in this to really do this for real, then you didn't you know you need the talent that's the buy in level but then you need the drive. And the reason Skrizz has 150 million streams is not because he's talented. He is the most driven talentless motherfucker.

Adam   36:22
I thought he did. Like one of my favorite movies of all time, The Shawshank Redemption, you know, and it's like, most people probably like I'm gonna try to break out of prison. Here's my one plan of doing it. Where instead he was like, nope, I'm gonna chip chip, Chip, Chip, Chip, Chip, Chip, Chip, Chip chip chip, then he's gone. I don't know how long he was in prison for.

Ken   36:42
I think it was like 20 years.

Adam   36:43
20 years. But he had the patience to keep slowly chipping away every night, every night, every night just chipping away, and he's gone. And he escapes. Where that's, I see that all the time, whether it's music, whether it's starting a business, being a life coach, like any of these, like sexy things ever wants to be a part of like, everyone gets super jazzed on Instagram, for three months, six months, maybe a year. But then all sudden, you're like, Where the hell that person go, where they go? Well, I don't have the endurance, because it has the endurance, what you guys have done is fucking difficult.

Ken   37:10
And one of the kisses of death with especially young artists is getting success too early. Because they don't understand how lucky they are and what a unicorn moment a hit single is and how many stars had to align for that to happen. And they don't understand that it's really hard to do that again. And so actually, the second time around, I don't know it depends without.

Skrizz   37:37
I say, if you if you have like a song that's going to go gold or something like that independently, to have that type of viral success again, independently, I think I've always seen it's really difficult for them. Um, but I think talking about what you guys were saying, like, the fundamental underlying thing of all this is like, you have to, you have to enjoy what you do. Like, like, like, I mean, like, I love making records. Like, I'd rather die than do something else. You know, I mean, like, yeah, I spent 14 hours yesterday, doing like, really tedious work, but like.

Ken   38:08
No plan B here.

Skrizz   38:10
Yeah, there's no this is we just make music. That's it. Like.

Ken   38:12
Yeah, Plan B can be a kiss of death. I mean, you know, that. It's hard to know because I know that you and I have fairly unique work drives. And not everybody is built like us. So you know, giving advice from my perspective is giving advice from the perspective of a motherfucker who works his ass off in the fucking to stay where I'm at? I mean, and you know, and to keep growing, but it's a seven day a week, you know, if I don't do it, somebody else is gonna do it.

Skrizz   38:44
I think the same thing all the time. I'm just like, like I'm currently I worked from like nine to like six I go to Buffalo Wild lanes and like, Am I going back to the studio tonight? And I'm just like, Well, someone else is like someone else's. And it's like, it's like, if I have these five songs I'm working on I'm like, Well, if you want that competitive it's like no, I gotta get this done like there's a lot of that.

Ken   39:06
The best drivers. The music industry doesn't care what your excuses are, like science, the music industry doesn't care what your excuses are it's gonna keep soldiering on without you.

Skrizz   39:18
The ultimate fuck your feelings.

Adam   39:19
I want to hear because, you know, you just kind of mentioned there and I've heard this from another podcast, you're on talking about it seven days a week and I think to make it a lot of these like hyper-competitive industries, you kind of have to be like that. But then you always hear the other side of like having work-life balance, like what, what do you think about work-life balance versus seven days a week?

Ken   39:37
I'm trying to find it. Honestly, I really am. So I just started a plugin company. So I do the, the the live stream mixing night on, it's free on YouTube, every other Wednesday night from 8 to 10pm Eastern. So we had to figure out how to keep the show going for free. So we decided the best way to do that, hopefully, is to launch a plug-in company. So our first plug in is this plugin called Greenhouse.

Skrizz   40:02
Shoutout Greenhouse.

Ken   40:03
Hi, I used it on Dan's vocal on the 28  Acoustic. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've used a bit on, on the 28, acoustic agreement on his vocal and his acoustic guitar, and he calls me up. He didn't know what I had done. He calls me up. And he's like, bro, whatever you did, that's the one. That's what we're doing. That's always got to be the sound. I'm like, you know, that's Greenhouse.

Adam   40:30
Can you explain that quick, for me and for the audience.

Ken   40:33
Okay, so the Greenhouse is my new plug in for anybody who makes records, It'll work with any DAW.

Skrizz   40:39
Just for people that a dummy language like, a plug-in, essentially is like a software effect, put on an instrument like a vocal, to a guitar or something, like to modify it.

Ken   40:49
Yeah. Right. So it changes the sound in some way. It might distort it or filter it or spread it out. And so yeah, it's called Greenhouse, and we'll be rolling out a bunch of plugins. And my hope is, that if the plugin thing takes off then I don't have to fucking work seven days a week, I can turn down the shit that I just, you know, you need to keep the lights on.

Adam   41:13
Just right now, it's all service-based like, if you're something.

Ken   41:17
No, I mean, I make a lot of like, I do well in like sync land and publishing and right, which is real and every day.

Adam   41:21
Right, but like, you have to like physically on the studio doing it versus like the plug in, you don't have to.

Skrizz   41:34
Yeah, it's like a business. Do it once and you're good.

Adam   41:37
I was. I was, I was listening to you know, some of your, your mix. It's mixing or mix nights?

Ken   41:43
Mixing nights.

Adam   41:45
And it's like, super fascinating for me, because I was I was watching it was like, this is like for the for the normal music fan. They probably don't care about it. But like for the person that like wants to get producer wants to be a mixer. It's fucking insane. Like the amount of just like behind the scenes access you're giving them like, I'm like a business leader taking them to like an investor meeting or like putting together an investor deck or like fucking Picasso showing how you know Picasso prepared to do a world class painting like you are giving them the behind the scenes look into it. You know, I know part of it. I'm sure it's, you know, to get Greenhouse off the ground. But like, what, deeper behind why you did that?

Ken   42:26
We started mixing that during the pandemic, the lockdown happened, and we were like, what the fuck do we do and we had all of this video gear. Because I had a school audio school online. So I had all this video gear for that. And so I, we bought the Blackmagic switcher and just started. I mean, it was so so by our shoestrings at the very it's still economist, totally buy your shoestring.

Skrizz   42:51
Tell The Rise of that how quickly, what's your peak audience on a night?

Ken   42:53
Peak audience, the best we've ever done is 9000+ live join. Wow, it's amazing. Amazing. But I don't know how we did that. So there's two shows 9000 and 7000 Plus, I don't know how we got in. I don't know how we did those numbers. Our other, our next best tier, we've done a bunch in the in the 2000 plus, Those are, those are when we do any kind of promotion, we usually do those numbers. No promotion show usually lands in 450 to 850 live joins. And then we re-stream and we re-stream on, on YouTube. And I didn't expect the show to become one it was I really didn't. It was just we were just like it's locked down. Oh fuck. And then we built this community that just became super special. And I was just like, Well, I'm not leaving the community behind. And this is, it became the thing that we didn't know what that we needed. I mean, we put so much fucking prep into that show. And it looks like I hope to the viewer that it looks super easy. Like I just sat down and started talking.

Adam   44:06
But that like, how does he do this? How does he fucking just sit here? Just like you're like a professor, there's no like stuttering. I'm like, how the hell are you doing this?

Ken   44:12
Three days of prep.

Adam    44:13
Yeah, exactly. See that? Man, that's so cool to see. That's what people don't realize that's what goes into anything great is that.

Skrizz   44:21
And that's a lot of what.

Ken   44:24
A lot of people don't realize is, I mean, A, if you're going to do something, do it to the best that you can, but a free show for me a lot of people look at that and go like, well, yours, that's a whole lot of time, you could be earning money producing or mixing or writing or and I look at that as, you know, I have, first of all, the community is so important to us. And that became the most valuable thing. But on top of that, it's the, the career exposure of keeping yourself in the public eye in any kind of a meaningful way.  Especially during a pandemic when nobody sees each other. I have a free show. And I could teach you everything that I know about record making. And I'm, I'm getting there with you Skrizz. And you would still make records differently than me? So and this has been like the Dave Pensado mentality for me, Dave Pensado has always been really free with his information.

Skrizz   45:23
Dave Pensado was just, he's, he's one of the first people to kind of go public and talk about mixing and stuff, correct? He's the godfather.

Ken   45:29
He has a YouTube show called Pensado's place, which is like the godfather of
mixing. Yeah, he's amazing. And he just, we're on the show recently. And he just had me on Pensado's Place. So it was a high honor of my career. So but he always gave us information. So I was like, you know.

Skrizz   45:47
I think it's one of the best things working for you that you're not like closed off everybody, you're not a ghost. So many people are just like, invisible. And he goes, like, you're out there giving information like letting culture spread. And it comes back to you, you know what I mean? That's the way to build.

Adam   45:59
And now you'll be the top whenever trends are starting to change, because there's young people that are on those streams. And you're, you know, in being in touch with what 15, 16, 17-year-olds are doing, especially in the music industry.

Ken   46:11
It keeps you very informed in ways that you can't really get otherwise. And like we do these beat challenges that are fucking awesome. I'll cook up some sort of royalty-free starter. And I'll serve it up to my community. And we get dozens and dozens of dozens of submissions back every time. We do a show every two weeks, every two weeks. And these people go in, like, two, three-minute full songs, top lines, Oh dude, full songs, the bridges, the whole shit. I mixed a user-submitted song from the beat challenge. I did a live mix on and on the last broadcast. And I thought, you know, like, I'd have him send me this. And I figured it'd be like 30 or 40 tracks. That fucking session was 94 tracks. 94 tracks for a challenge. And that's like, that's my community. That is a normal event. In my mind. It's incredible. The responses that we have gotten the most exceptional stat from my broadcast is that our, it's not the the number of joins, it's how long they stay around. Because our average join rate is over the course of the entire show is 20 minutes.

Adam   47:21
Wow. Wow. Wow. That's no joke.

Ken   47:23
Nobody does that.

Adam   47:25
Yeah, that's amazing.

Skrizz   47:26
That's amazing.

Ken   47:28
So yeah, that's when we saw the engagement level that we were getting that that was just like, wow, we're really we're building real. And we're hoping that the plug-in introduces more people to mixing night and that we get more people to our show.

Adam   47:44
What, like if I was like, if I'm at Berkeley, if I'm teaching at Berkeley, and you have students that are interested in production, or mixing, like, they should be setting them as a mandatory thing for class.

Ken   47:55
I'm, I'm a little bit surprised if, honestly, that how low my viewership is for what I'm giving away.

Adam   48:00
I feel like it's kind of like about like that, that big moment. But there's me one day, you're like this, is this, right? It's a really 20,000 people on this right now. Yeah, like I, I could see it starting to skyrocket.

Ken   48:12
You know, I'm hopeful. But, you know, we still,  we still do decent numbers. And of course, the summertime shirt, you know, for an early evening shows just gonna be hard to get anybody in. But I think with the Delta variant ripping through schools right now. I mean, people are about to be back indoors for a really long time. And that was the whole reason Mixing Night was founded was to, you know, keep everybody kind of connected and give them something to do and give us something to do. It's been great. So hopefully, we'll be able to keep doing it for a long time. And the plugins, you know, hopefully that will feed the show on the show, we'll feed it back because money from the sales of the plugins will, will allow us to do the show because I pay for the show out of my pocket and it's free and I don't monetize it.

Adam   48:58
You don't want to get any advertisers?

Ken   49:00
Oh, no. Well, no, I want, because I want to know when I teach you something that, that it is something that I do not something somebody paid me to tell. Anytime I do anything on my show, it is something that I actually use and work with and like that. So I'm super, super careful brand-wise and have passed on a lot of money to make sure that my name and reputation stay right like that. And, and that goes towards, you know, the same reason I did a free show, like, I mean, some things you just aren't that important to make money on, you know?

Adam   49:43
And I think the more value you give constantly, the more it will always come back to you. It'll be reciprocated at some time, if you just can't, at least I feel, just focus in giving value, giving value, giving value, your value is gonna come back.

Ken   49:55
Here's a perfect example of that is so I just lost a great assistant. And so now I'm looking for a new assistant but the new pool of assistant resumes that I've gotten, and I'm in the middle of the interview process right now is, is truly exceptional. And I think a lot of that is people who know about mixing night who found out about me through mixing night, and, and who applied to work for me through, so I'm probably going to end up, I am definitely going to end up with an absolutely killer assistant, who will probably end up with a wall very much like mine last 15 years. You know, and and a lot of that is because of you know, keeping yourself in the public eye on Mixing Night and just trying to do right by people. And, you know, being a being a good human goes a long way in the world does. It really does. I try and keep myself away from bad humans.

Skrizz   51:03
Same here. If I ever get a bad vibe, I'm out immediately on everyday at this point in my life.

Ken   51:08
Life is too short and time is your most precious asset. And people that waste it. Just don't want to.

Adam   51:16
On that, on that note, on time. And how are we doing?

Ken   51:20
Yeah, I need to wrap by 11

Adam   51:24
Oh yeah, one more big question around the time thing. Like we talked about before, now you're in four, four decades right here have been in the business, you know, counting, counting college four young decades. But anyway, like you, you've seen some in the 80s. You've done amazing, amazing work in the 90s 20s 2000, and 2010s. Like, could you give us one thing that would shock us that has changed? In one thing that would shock us that has stayed exactly the same?

Ken   52:01
Well, we used to not have autotune. So let everybody listening, extrapolate whatever they would like to think about. We used to not have that. And not everything used to come out of a box sounding perfect. People used to actually play instruments and create sounds on their own long before, long before everything came out of a synthesizer or something.

Skrizz   52:33
There was a band called The Rolling Stone and they were pretty good.

Ken   52:35
Yeah, like, like, I remember in the 80s and 90s and even the 2000s listening to a whole lot of stuff that if you went back and listen now would be so cringe-worthy out of tune on the vocals. Because we're so used to hearing everything so pitch-perfect now, but I don't ever remember a moment listening to those songs back then when I gave the first fuck that they were ever so slightly out of tune on that pre-chorus. You know, and that's the difference now we're so things are so, like perfect and compartmentalized and thought out and strategized that when something like really truly new and fresh comes along like it's kind of super refreshing.

Skrizz   53:20
I got a give Canada actually a credit and a shout out for this. When we did meet you, which was off my first EP ever, that was the first time ever hearing myself. So I say ahead of the beat, I rush ahead of the beat, and that I always saw that as like a big flaw, and then Ken produce my vocal. I mean, obviously, you weren't you were changing my timing a lot and stuff and like fine-tuning it. But when I heard it, I was like, man, I'm really rushing the beat. And then you're like, but that's the way you that's how you sound great. And that's what that's like, that's your thing, like AC DC does the same thing. Like that's what makes it great. And then like that was the first meant like, yeah, it's funny. Like I cringe when I first when I was like, why do I sound wrong? Like like, well, that's the way you sing and that's what makes it great. It's it gets people excited. And then like that, if you listen to my record, like that's the staple of my sound like that in perfection of me following my own sense of time, even without a to my own sense of pitch like that. That's, that's the way I sing. And that's people like it. So can you describe for that, for sure.

Ken   54:17
You know, singers, singers that I love and gravitate towards, in general. Like my advice to any young artist is, it's not about singing, it is not about singing. It's not about singing. It's not about singing, it is about connecting. And it doesn't matter if you're fucking Bob Dylan with the worst boys in the world, or Adelle, you have to connect. And you can connect lyrically or flow-wise or musically or however, but you don't have to be the best singer in the world. You have to find your tribe and connect with them and grow them from the ground up. And which is tough, because a lot of people think like, Oh, you know, you got to be you should be a musician in order to make music or you have to be. No, sorry. I mean, I'm a musician. I've spent my life perfecting the craft of being a musician and a vocalist, but I don't give a fuck if somebody picks up an MPC and makes a beat that never played an instrument in their life. And, you know, that's and that's what autotune does. Autotune allows non-singers to sing. And that's never going away. Yeah, just lets people be more creative with tools and that's the bottom line is you just wherever the magic comes from is I don't care.

Skrizz   55:38
What is something that stayed the same then over these decades that maybe that surprises you?

Ken   55:42
The shittiness of the music industry.

Skrizz   55:48
It's not going away anytime.

Ken   55:49
It's not probably going away anytime the just the real shittiness of the music industry.

Skrizz   55:53
Very lousy people.

Adam   55:55
Give one quick story on it before we jump.

Ken   55:59
A thousand quick stories. I mean, you know, the, the the bottom line in the music industry is it doesn't matter what you've accomplished or how big you get somebody will always try and fuck with you, always, for this stupidest reasons. I mean, people just seem to love to fucking fight in the music industry. I don't understand it at all. The being that having the ability to do good and fair business is like a superpower in the music industry. Because so so few people fucking do it. And but the great thing is like when you feel like okay, I'm done good work, and I do good business and then somebody tries to fuck with you, then you're like, no, I have solid moral footing I have solid business footing. And, and this is what it is. If you don't like it, try it go fuck somebody else.

Adam    56:51
Which example of them trying to fuck you.

Skrizz    56:52
I would open this can of worms.

Ken   56:56
No, I mean, it's not a no, no specifics, but it's anything from you know, pay to percentages to it's always paying percentages.

Skrizz   57:03
It comes out dollars and cents always. You want an agreement. You won't change the agreement. Everybody wants on the same page.

Adam   57:06
It's less about the production more about the business side.

Ken   57:11
Yeah, you try and keep the you try and keep the creative away from the business as far away as points. That's the only way to do it. You can't mix the two in real-time. You know, it's the best way to end a creative session as we talk this.

Skrizz   57:24
We're gonna wrap it up. Thanks for everything. I'll talk to you after this. First guest on the Rise.

Adam   57:34
Thanks, Ken.

Ken   57:35
Thank you.